Curse

lg5000 · Aug 24, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Big difference with the elite missions and UW/FoW. Elite missions (at least at the moment) have a set idea of what your group MUST include, and no other classes. UW/FoW on the other hand, are much more acceptable of all classes.

Btw, I have not attempted the elite missions, as the general concensus of what classes can be played there scared me off. Maybe.. if I get REALLY bored.. I'll attempt it.

Winx.ZN · Aug 24, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

The "Elite" missions can be conquered in under 4 hours. If I'm in a group I draw the line at 3. Don't do it much anymore... anyway...

Comparing the elite missions to FoW/UW in time length.

Clearing ALL of FoW or UW = Completing the Elite mission. You have the same time restrictions. Understandable that the Elite missions are straight forward room to room, but some quests are interlinked in those realms as well.

Consider the little quests here and there in the realms as the "rooms." They take just as long with a half decent pug as clearing the forge does (look ma, no book!).

You'll have the same argument and be just as annoyed when you leave PvE, start serious PvP and wonder how come its so hard for you to get to Hall of Heroes without a Hall Jump AND Holding it. How come there isnt a save point at Burial Mounds? I wanna stop the run at the Courtyard and carry on later! etc.

Mr_eX · Aug 24, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

The elite missions are fine the way they are.

A reconnect feature needs to be added to the game as a whole.

shadowfell · Aug 24, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by milias

Good comments so far!

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I was under the impressions that GW was created to be something different from WoW, and to fill in the gaps left by games like WoW. I believe someone from ANet has said that GW was designed around the casual player, and not so much the more hardcore players who can afford to dedicate a sizable portion of the day to this game. You can see it in the design of the missions, quests, etc.

You could argue that elite missions were designed for the "elite" players, but I think even if it was ANet's original intention, they have reversed course on that, in that they're in the process of making it available to everyone, and not just the holding alliance.

I personally don't know what the ratio is like of casual players to hardcore players, but I would assume that a significant portion of the GW community are in fact what you would call casual players like me. I just don't feel comfortable with anything that would help to exclude a significant portion of the community because of something that can't really be helped.

Now let's look at the definition of an "elite" mission. I take it to mean that the mission is "elite", in that they are tough, not the people who are actually playing them. Again, you can see this in the fact that ANet is opening it up to more people. So if something helps casual players to overcome something that's out of their control, i.e. nothing to do with how good of a player they are, I honestly don't see any valid reasons to exclude them.

To refresh what was said during the open weekend...

People complained that they couldn't get into them.. and then when they were allowed in, they complained that they were too hard. It is a time investment. You are often forced to work under pressure. Like everywhere else, you are often forced to work with less than the ideal amount of party members, i.e. leavers, error 7, etc. It can still be done. Why would arena net bother placing handy little place holders for you in the 'elite' missions, if they can't even keep 8 people in a gvg or ha team without losing one or more to error 7. All we get is a crappy henchie.. Why would you get a fresh new human player? If you want something casual with supposed high reward, start a gardening hobby.

MirkoTeran · Aug 24, 2006, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Elite missions are the only high-end part exclusive to chapter 2 and they are no more difficult than FoW or UW, just different.
If they make them easier what would be left for 'elite' players? By making them more accesible to new players you are making them less desireable to the old ones. Simple as that.
Remember the elite weekend? Do you really want to go to The Deep with 10 player who never been past the 2nd room?

bungusmaximus · Aug 24, 2006, 09:38 AM // 09:38

I like the missions the way they are, else the game gets boring for skilled players. If ppl decide to make them accessible more easy, plz add an access fee just like in FoW or UW to prevent the place being swarming with noobies, else it will REALLY get hard to complete the mission :P

cloudbunny · Aug 24, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

I like the missions the way they are, else the game gets boring for skilled players.

They are boring for skilled players!
After finished the mission once, you know all traps and features so redoing it is only wading through the same mass of corpses as last time. The replay value is limited since much of the challenge of the elite missions is the "surprise". After that it is not much left. Then it is degraded to farming, and the challenge value is gone.

Too many seem to think that long mission time and large amount of monsters equals a hard mission. It don't! Unpredictable high level challenges do on the other hand!

Also too many seem to think that casual players that only play 2-5 hours a week automatic is bad players. They are not! Many of my friends are only on a few hours a week and they are excellent players. However they would never be able to dedicate 7 hours for a long UW trip.

If a player spends 60 hours a week to solo farm ectos or farm elite missions that player do not evolve much as player, it is only semiautomatic grinding. Elite mission should take a couple of hours to give that satisfiying feeling of accomplishment. But it should be a hard challenge due to quality not quantity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Btw, I have not attempted the elite missions, as the general concensus of what classes can be played there scared me off. Maybe.. if I get REALLY bored.. I'll attempt it.

That concensus is wrong, a lot different constellations can go through the missions. First time I was through the Deep we had a party with 1 Monk and 2 Assassins (probably doomed by most others), however we discovered we had brought too little/wrong enchantment removal to be able to take Kanaxai out. So if you just bring some key skills I guess almost any skilled and careful party can do it through.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Mo Joe Joe Joe · Aug 24, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloudbunny

I want harder unpredictable areas (random spawns, random monster types etc). The difficulty of the missions should depend less on the knowledge about the area and all traps and spawns and more on actually hard resistance/challenges. A deadly trap is not difficult if you know where it is and can avoid it.

...

Please give us harder, unpredicateble, but also somewhat shorter missions!

And Err 07 is a big threat to any player in a long mission. If you as me play with international parties, the possibility for problem grows. I have had friends got diconnected 1 min before completing "Restore the monument" quest, that is not funny. I would not liked "resting points" in an elite mission, but I absolutely would have liked a "return to the party after err07" feature.

Elite missions should be hard, not easy farmable! (my mantra!)

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Now these are principles that I can support. I have never understood why spawns are typically fixed in the location, quantity, and skill type. This is exactly why i do not find any PVE content challenging beyond a handfull of trips to any given area/mission. I have found PVP more stimulating, because your foe is not soo predictable. I still do PVE for the loot, but consider it mostly a grinding experience.

So start a new petition for random spawn of random monsters and I will give you a /signed. But be prepared for an onslaught of casual gamers complaining that things are too hard already...

Gun Pierson · Aug 24, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

First remark is that every veteran once was a noob or did the elite for the first time. So even though you're a vet player when a new elite mission opens, you're a noob in it. But this changes very fast ofcourse (experience), much faster as with casual players. Though some casual players are very talented too.

When you start an elite ask yourself:

- Do I have the time to do this, if not just don't go in there.
- Am I strong enough (builds, strats, etc.) I mean if your character or your xp isn't advanced enough, you'll just be the noob people have to rez every minute.
- Do I wanne play as part of the team or just do my thingy.

Everybody should have the chance to participate in one, but that doesn't mean everybody must succeed completing them. Advanced players need something to chew on, to keep them busy and it better be long and difficult. I agree elites should spam random creeps and even situations. Stimulates the brain.

aron searle · Aug 24, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

The way i see it is

People who are skilled enough may not do it because they dont have the time, and its not conviniantly accessable.

People who are not necessarly as skilled may have more time and do it.

I would rather see 4-5 smaller but much more difficult areas that can be done in under an hour, rather than 2 big areas that need several hours each, and that are readily accassable to anyone who has completed the game.

WasAGuest · Aug 24, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

I enjoyed the Elite mission weekend, those missions were a lot of fun. They were, however a bit too long.

After looking at what GW has in play now, the Elite missions for future chapters could be broken apart into some smaller areas of increasing difficulty using the quest system and the horrid "locked gates". Here's how:

Area 1. Enter here and fight through till you get to an NPC who updates your quest log. You can then proceed to Area 2 outpost. At this point you can log off and come back another day if you so wish, but only into Area 2 outpost as that is now the active quest. Continue through Area 2 quest zone untill you reach another NPC who updates quest log and allows access to Area 3 outpost where the same mechanic is in place. You can only access Area 3 now. Continue this untill the end.
Each area is seperated by an outpost similar to what we have now. Access to the next stage is only allowed by those with that quest active. A party wipe, or someone mapping out instantly fails the quest and must start back at Area 1.

Nothing above is new or additional to what we have in play now. It's just broken down and put in place to divide the huge areas up and give players a break. It also gives options for players so that if they wish, they can keep going through or they can stop for the night.

Hopefully I explained that well.

Clone · Aug 24, 2006, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MirkoTeran

By making them more accesible to new players you are making them less desireable to the old ones. Simple as that.
Remember the elite weekend? Do you really want to go to The Deep with 10 player who never been past the 2nd room?

Thats complete nonsense. I've played prophecies since it came out, and in my opinion, anything that limits the game for anyone is bad. If the game is unappealing to people, you'll be faced with an ever dwindling population and the ultimate death of the game.

And if you don't want to go with someone who hasn't done it before, YOU DON'T HAVE TO! Form a guild group and quit whining about people who actually want to play what they've paid for! If eliteist jackasses would stop calling them noobs and rage quitting and start giving it a shot, perhaps they'd become better for it.

samifly · Aug 24, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Length of time has nothing really to do with its "leetness" You can make something very very hard, but it could just take an hour.

I agree the elite missions take too long. It takes an hour at least to form a group, and anywhere from 3-5 hours to complete it if your lucky. And the longer it takes the more people are likely to err7..which is happening more everyday. (I error 7 at least once a day now, it used to be once a week or month), which makes the mission take even longer. Urgoz is a longer, trickier version of Tombs, which I thought was "mind-numbingly boring" withought a B/P or faster team. the same mobs over and over makes it boring.

Very few people have unninterruptable time for 5 hours. Thats just silly. I hope they make better elite content for nightfall

Caethas Turan · Aug 25, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

3 - 5 hours seems long to me. A group of us go, there's usually four of us who go together and we get a PuG team. Takes 30 - 45 minutes to get a team going and we're done in an hour and 15 minutes.

We do the Deep run every night, well my night that is and it's a hard mission, but to the "casual player" this might be too much.

As with anything, it's practice to become good at something. And there are some groups out there that just make you want to scream, but most importantly. They're fun and a great time to be had by all, if you don't stress.

Kern Wolf · Aug 25, 2006, 03:47 AM // 03:47

To the OP:

I consider myself a casual player (a few hours a night; maybe a little longer on the weekends). IMO, I don't think ANet needs to change URGOZ or The Deep.
The first time I decided to get a PUG to try and do everything in FOW, it was a rainy Saturday afternoon, and there was nothing on TV (no sports worth watching, that is..lol). I got a PUG together, America got the favor, and off we went. I wasn't even aware of the time going by, but I had a blast doing it (I think it might have been about 3 hours or so; we were trying to get everywhere. It was a novelty for me at the time; I didn't know too many people who wanted to do more than the 1st 2 quests in FOW).
I was lucky enough to get in a good PUG during the weekend event for the missions. I was aware of the time it would take, but I made sure I had the time to do it (if I remember, we cleared about 5 rooms, and it was fun. Definitely different strategy and build required; my char is a W/E). Again, it was a LOT of fun.
My attitude is that I'll go back into URGOZ, but I don't feel "shut out" of it. It'll be that night that I'll say to myself, "Well, I've explored all of Seafarer's Rest; bored with that. Gone after Sskai already; bored with that. Hmmmm, let me give URGOZ a try".. I realize that the night I decide to go back, that that will be my focus for the evening when I'm playing GW.
Hope that helps...

lg5000 · Aug 25, 2006, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by cloudbunny

That concensus is wrong, a lot different constellations can go through the missions. First time I was through the Deep we had a party with 1 Monk and 2 Assassins (probably doomed by most others), however we discovered we had brought too little/wrong enchantment removal to be able to take Kanaxai out. So if you just bring some key skills I guess almost any skilled and careful party can do it through.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Good to know

Now to see if I can handle standing there looking for a group.

cloudbunny · Aug 25, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caethas Turan

3 - 5 hours seems long to me. A group of us go, there's usually four of us who go together and we get a PuG team. Takes 30 - 45 minutes to get a team going and we're done in an hour and 15 minutes.

We do the Deep run every night, well my night that is and it's a hard mission, but to the "casual player" this might be too much.

I think that time estimation is correct, if you all have done it before and knows what to expect and what to do. For those mixed parties with some that are new to the mission and therefore needs some explaination during the trip, 3-5 hours is more realistic.

I wonder what a the definition of a "causal" player is? Most tend to agree that anyone that dedicates 8+ hours a day or more is "hardcore". But many who plays 1-2 hours a day and maybe a few hours more in the weekends do often define them selves as "casual", even though that would easily give you 500+ hours played a year. That is big amount compared to most non-online games! If you play that amount and tries to active learn how to play better and do not do a lot repetative farming you will probably end up as skilled as anyone that does 8+ a day. I would guess most people outside the game would think anyone playing more than 2-3 times or about 5 hours a week as pretty "hardcore".

I remember a thread long ago where it seemed most people overestimated their own "casualness".

Regards,
Cloudbunny

cloudbunny · Aug 25, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Good to know

Now to see if I can handle standing there looking for a group.

Main problem when looking for a PUG, is to find those "skilled and patient" players.

In my experience there are two main groups looking for parties.
"Inpatient speed farmers" that wants an experienced farming team that can breeze through the mission in close to an hour. The other is the normal gang of unexperienced/rushy players that play too careless to actually play well in a Deep team. The first group is easy to avoid, only announce something like "balanced team for slow trip". To avoid those rushy players is much harder, and one rushy move in the wrong place can easily cause a disaster. Guild/friend teams are probably the best solution, but it might be hard to get a full team if you are not in a bigger pve Guild.

Regards,
Cloudbunny

Poison Ivy · Aug 25, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfell

To refresh what was said during the open weekend...

People complained that they couldn't get into them.. and then when they were allowed in, they complained that they were too hard. It is a time investment. You are often forced to work under pressure. Like everywhere else, you are often forced to work with less than the ideal amount of party members, i.e. leavers, error 7, etc. It can still be done. Why would arena net bother placing handy little place holders for you in the 'elite' missions, if they can't even keep 8 people in a gvg or ha team without losing one or more to error 7. All we get is a crappy henchie.. Why would you get a fresh new human player? If you want something casual with supposed high reward, start a gardening hobby.

A clash between moddies!

Anyways, my point of view:
It depends entirely on Anet. If they meant this place to be a 4 hour mission for the people who play this game almost religiously, than it's fine the way it is.

If it's for those who have a life, can't spend 4 hours straight just to play a game, than they should add the save point ideas kindly provided my millas.

MirkoTeran · Aug 25, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clone

Thats complete nonsense. I've played prophecies since it came out, and in my opinion, anything that limits the game for anyone is bad. If the game is unappealing to people, you'll be faced with an ever dwindling population and the ultimate death of the game.

Fine, I may sound by elitist but I don't really care.

There are always things that limit your game. And there should be. Do you want level3 noobs running around with FoW armor and 15^50 req7 crystallines? I sure don't. If you have nothing to work for then you have
nothing to play for.

In any case, 95% of game can be complete by any unskilled player. The rest 5% takes some skill. Do you want to take the last 5% away? Doing that will make much more people quit than leaving it as it is or even making it harder.